🕯️ Traditions There is no free-will ayon sa isang psychologist

[plhbg1]

Imagine this.. a person is known to react to a certain stimulus at a given predisposition due to environment and mental state. Does is matter kung iba ang reaction nya sa ibang tao? All that matters is if this person consistently reacts in a certain way to say that his behavior is predetermined. The other person is also predetermined, just not operating in the same rule as the first person.

it only applies to consistent reactions bossing, di yan magwo-work saken na kaya magpalit ng view in split second especially if i got more data to contemplate on

Based sa logic mo, pag naghulog ka ng dalawang bola na magkaibang material gawa, at nagresulta magkaibang bounce pattern, ibig sabihin may free-will ang bola.

the different reactions doesn't have to necessarily occur to different persons, it can actually happen to the same person boss, unpredictable ako, maya maya lang nagbabago isip ko sa mga bagay2 and worse is kino-kontra ko pa ang default response or the convention

at yang material difference analogy mo will not match to different people especially if naging same yung reaction nila, like i said unpredictable yan especially for humans na mataas na level ng consciousness as compared to the rest of the animals

A material cant have a will, it depends on logical explanation of matters why objects move in certain direction. While human being are logical beings or organism with "free-will" with their conciousness, either to act logically or with instinct. For example, a caveman, wala educational background ang caveman, pero meron syang instinct to protect himself from danger and to survive base on his experience or his tribe collective experiences. Meron rin sya curiosity to explore anything he don't understand. Its called technical exploration.

We have wisdom of experience from our ancestors. It is our "free-will" to learn, adapt and improve their method.
Free-will is a consciousness where you are liberated from thinking inside the box. You can also call this outside paradox.

yes the lower the consciousness the more predictable is the behavior, and the lower the education the lower the consciousness din, so common sense lang ang gagamitin which is heavily dependent on day-to-day experience, he will not challenge his own experience so he will just assume what worked before might still work and that makes his behavior so predictable na parang may sinusunod na script

 

[Master_Taichi_Quan]

yes the lower the consciousness the more predictable is the behavior, and the lower the education the lower the consciousness din, so common sense lang ang gagamitin which is heavily dependent on day-to-day experience, he will not challenge his own experience so he will just assume what worked before might still work and that makes his behavior so predictable na parang may sinusunod na script.

What you saying is called behavioral science.

 

[plhbg1]

What you saying is called behavioral science.

in the past kasi, psychology is dominated by behaviorists, they deny the presence of thinking since they want psychology to be purely scientific and they only consider what can be observed namely the behavior (response) and the environment (stimuli), yun lang pinag-aralan nila since thinking is still unobservable, kaya yun walang free will, so they develop fixed patterns of response to every stimulus making it possible to control the behavior by just altering the environment and it worked great on animals but failed on humans

 

[Master_Taichi_Quan]

in the past kasi, psychology is dominated by behaviorists, they deny the presence of thinking since they want psychology to be purely scientific and they only consider what can be observed namely the behavior (response) and the environment (stimuli), yun lang pinag-aralan nila since thinking is still unobservable, kaya yun walang free will, so they develop fixed patterns of response to every stimulus making it possible to control the behavior by just altering the environment and it worked great on animals but failed on humans

Animals can adapt using their instincts and they can also be trained to survive, but human have logical reasoning, di sila makakaadapt kung di nila alaw kung paano. Kung ãdül† ang ilagay mo sa unknown environment, magpapanic ito at gagawa ng logical reasoning bakit at pano sya nandoon. Makakasurvive lang ito kung may knowledge ito sa environment na kinaroroonan nya, kung wala, mag susuffer ito at magshushutdown kasi walang choice na nakalagay.

 

[plhbg1]

Animals can adapt using their instincts and they can also be trained to survive, but human have logical reasoning, di sila makakaadapt kung di nila alaw kung paano.
Kung ãdül† ang ilagay mo sa unknown environment, magpapanic ito at gagawa ng logical reasoning bakit at pano sya nandoon. Makakasurvive lang ito kung may knowledge ito sa environment na kinaroroonan nya, kung wala, mag susuffer ito at magshushutdown kasi walang choice na nakalagay.

meron pa din naman instincts or genetically hardcoded traits ang humans like the reflexes (rooting, sucking, grasping, crawling, moro, crying, etc.), this ensures human survival especially on babies, babies rely so much on reflexes for survival since very low pa consciousness nila na parang sa animal level lang

but humans not only think for their own survival, marami tayong mga gusto pang abutin sa buhay as compared to the rest of animals, gusto pa natin makarating sa iba't ibang sulok ng universe, survival isn't enough, we want more

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

it only applies to consistent reactions bossing, di yan magwo-work saken na kaya magpalit ng view in split second especially if i got more data to contemplate on

the different reactions doesn't have to necessarily occur to different persons, it can actually happen to the same person boss, unpredictable ako, maya maya lang nagbabago isip ko sa mga bagay2 and worse is kino-kontra ko pa ang default response or the convention

at yang material difference analogy mo will not match to different people especially if naging same yung reaction nila, like i said unpredictable yan especially for humans na mataas na level ng consciousness as compared to the rest of the animals

yes the lower the consciousness the more predictable is the behavior, and the lower the education the lower the consciousness din, so common sense lang ang gagamitin which is heavily dependent on day-to-day experience, he will not challenge his own experience so he will just assume what worked before might still work and that makes his behavior so predictable na parang may sinusunod na script

I get what you are saying and how that reinforces the illusion of free will. Pero think about this about yourself, what cotributed to increasing your personality's plasticity kaya k naging random mag isip? At some point in your life, mlaman may mga stimulus na nag lead sayo papunta dito.
Sure, mahirap kang basahin kasi marami kang iba't ibang motivation to choose from, (including the motivation to prove that you have free will). i am not saying that there is a being who determined the present for you, but kung meron makaka kuha ng complete information tungkol sa motivations mo, they will be able to manipulate you without you knowing towards a determined result.

 

[plhbg1]

I get what you are saying and how that reinforces the illusion of free will. Pero think about this about yourself, what cotributed to increasing your personality's plasticity kaya k naging random mag isip? At some point in your life, mlaman may mga stimulus na nag lead sayo papunta dito.
Sure, mahirap kang basahin kasi marami kang iba't ibang motivation to choose from, (including the motivation to prove that you have free will). i am not saying that there is a being who determined the present for you, but kung meron makaka kuha ng complete information tungkol sa motivations mo, they will be able to manipulate you without you knowing towards a determined result.

ehehe still it doesn't change the fact na iba iba ang interpretation natin sa bawat stimulus, two people showing same response do not necessarily respond to the same stimulus, and two people showing different responses might actually be responding to the same stimulus, kasi nga magkaiba ang interpretation natin

if we grant your claim that every stimulus generates a single response is true, then matagal na sanang na-control ang behavior ng tao by just altering the stimulus in way that the conditions implemented are the ones that could elicit the desired behavior

you can then tame a person like a dog

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

ehehe still it doesn't change the fact na iba iba ang interpretation natin sa bawat stimulus, two people showing same response do not necessarily respond to the same stimulus, and two people showing different responses might actually be responding to the same stimulus, kasi nga magkaiba ang interpretation natin

if we grant your claim that every stimulus generates a single response is true, then matagal na sanang na-control ang behavior ng tao by just altering the stimulus in way that the conditions implemented are the ones that could elicit the desired behavior

you can then tame a person like a dog

Ang basis nmn ng determinism ay hindi ung difference ng reaction ng bawat tao. It is wether they they merely react to stimuli rather than having a free-will. And frankly speaking the idea of free will is only an abstract idea humans invented to separate themselves from the "dumb" species of animals, no matter how we put it. In the objective world, there is only stimuli. We are just animals who acts accordingly to stimuli, albeit with more complicated motivations.

 

[plhbg1]

Ang basis nmn ng determinism ay hindi ung difference ng reaction ng bawat tao. It is wether they they merely react to stimuli rather than having a free-will.

actually it is the "thinking" or "will" ang natatanging difference bossing, both pre-destined and the free willed human can react to stimuli, yung difference lang nila is reacting without thinking (automatic based on pre-determined patterns) at yung isa is reacting deliberately or willingly or decisively or purposely (thoughtful decisions), kumbaga automatic vs manual

And frankly speaking the idea of free will is only an abstract idea humans invented to separate themselves from the "dumb" species of animals, no matter how we put it. In the objective world, there is only stimuli. We are just animals who acts accordingly to stimuli, albeit with more complicated motivations.

lol evolution is already good at separating species bossing, the fact that dogs can be separated from cats is already proof that humans can also be separated from dogs and cats, wag mo sabihing impossible magkaroon ng development of intelligence in the evolutionary chain

 

[Asherah Goddess]

Papaano naman ang gender ng a man and a woman? Is it free will or is it naka-destine lang poh siya? Kasi, in my view, kung true talaga na meron free will poh siya, bakit ang assign role na atasan sa kanila ay wala sila kakayahan baguhin iyon? Di nga.

Meron naman silang free will na umalis sa role na kung ano inatasan sa kanila and yet wala silang ability na umalis. Yung assign roles na katulad ng lalake ay provider, dominant in gender raw, being assertive and not being submissive poh and assign roles naman ng babae ay nurturer, subordinate in gender raw, being submissive and not being dominant.

Kung talaga meron silang free will as in? Based sa nakikita ko, naka-rely sila sa biblia kung ano din ang pinoportray nito about a man and a woman poh eh, like si Adam raw ang unang ginawa, and then si Eve ay ginawa pangalawa lang daw kay Adam at nanggaling pa siya sa ribs and from now on, bawat birth ay naka-assign na poh ang ganyan role.

Halimbawa. Kapag ipinanganak na lalake, automatic ay ganyan na agad ang assign role sa kanya and kapag babae, automatic na ganyan din naka assign role agad sa kanya.

Eh diba high percentage ng mga tao sa bansang Pilipinas ay naniniwala kung ano ang nakasulat in the bible at kung ano ang pinapaniwalaan din nilang God, so that means, wala silang free will dahil kung ano lang naka-assign roles sa kanila, andiyan lang sila at hindi sila umaalis. Nagtataka ako na kung meron talaga silang free will, dapat nakaalis na sila sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila pero ang nakikita ko, it seems na hindi sila makaalis-alis and it means ganyan na talaga ang kanilang destiny.

Unless kung rebel or not religious or does not believe in God anymore, malamang ay pwede niya baguhin ang assign roles na inatasan sa kanila. It is a reason why meron umuusbong na itinatawag na reverse roles and / or meron homosexual existing poh dahil hindi sila nag iistick sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila.

Papaano? Kung meron talaga silang free will, bakit wala silang ability na umalis sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila? Kung meron free will talaga sila? Ang nakikita ko na they already accepted their fate na ganyan na sila nang iniluwal sila ng kanilang mga ina?

Or about free will, well, baka kontrolado sila ng kung sino man gumawa ng bible poh na kunyari na sinasabi na meron free will kahit wala naman talaga free will.

Ewan ko kung gets na nagbabasa pero for me, there is this feeling na walang free will. It seems kung ano lang naka-destine sa kanya, diyan na siya. As in diyan na talaga siya.​

 

[plhbg1]

Papaano naman ang gender ng a man and a woman? Is it free will or is it naka-destine lang poh siya?​

hehe just like wondering how did life begin, nature vs nurture na naman tayo niyan, but se̾x at birth is in the genes (nature) but the gender that the person eventually assumes later in life depends on her interpretation of things (nurture)

Kasi, in my view, kung true talaga na meron free will poh siya, bakit ang assign role na atasan sa kanila ay wala sila kakayahan baguhin iyon? Di nga.

Meron naman silang free will na umalis sa role na kung ano inatasan sa kanila and yet wala silang ability na umalis. Yung assign roles na katulad ng lalake ay provider, dominant in gender raw, being assertive and not being submissive poh and assign roles naman ng babae ay nurturer, subordinate in gender raw, being submissive and not being dominant.​

ikaw na mismo nagsabi na possible naman talaga ang mag disobey sa societal norms, but i don't think that would be an easier journey when we go against the societal norms, ginagawa ko yan ngayon combating against what is conventional in a society at kaliwa't kanan ang rejection ng views ko kasi nga hindi align sa societal norms

Kung talaga meron silang free will as in? Based sa nakikita ko, naka-rely sila sa biblia kung ano din ang pinoportray nito about a man and a woman poh eh, like si Adam raw ang unang ginawa, and then si Eve ay ginawa pangalawa lang daw kay Adam at nanggaling pa siya sa ribs and from now on, bawat birth ay naka-assign na poh ang ganyan role.

Halimbawa. Kapag ipinanganak na lalake, automatic ay ganyan na agad ang assign role sa kanya and kapag babae, automatic na ganyan din naka assign role agad sa kanya.

Eh diba high percentage ng mga tao sa bansang Pilipinas ay naniniwala kung ano ang nakasulat in the bible at kung ano ang pinapaniwalaan din nilang God, so that means, wala silang free will dahil kung ano lang naka-assign roles sa kanila, andiyan lang sila at hindi sila umaalis. Nagtataka ako na kung meron talaga silang free will, dapat nakaalis na sila sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila pero ang nakikita ko, it seems na hindi sila makaalis-alis and it means ganyan na talaga ang kanilang destiny.

Unless kung rebel or not religious or does not believe in God anymore, malamang ay pwede niya baguhin ang assign roles na inatasan sa kanila. It is a reason why meron umuusbong na itinatawag na reverse roles and / or meron homosexual existing poh dahil hindi sila nag iistick sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila.

Papaano? Kung meron talaga silang free will, bakit wala silang ability na umalis sa assign roles na inatasan sa kanila? Kung meron free will talaga sila? Ang nakikita ko na they already accepted their fate na ganyan na sila nang iniluwal sila ng kanilang mga ina?

Or about free will, well, baka kontrolado sila ng kung sino man gumawa ng bible poh na kunyari na sinasabi na meron free will kahit wala naman talaga free will.

Ewan ko kung gets na nagbabasa pero for me, there is this feeling na walang free will. It seems kung ano lang naka-destine sa kanya, diyan na siya. As in diyan na talaga siya.​

actually yung pagsunod sa bible is already a voluntary decision (free will)

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

actually it is the "thinking" or "will" ang natatanging difference bossing, both pre-destined and the free willed human can react to stimuli, yung difference lang nila is reacting without thinking (automatic based on pre-determined patterns) at yung isa is reacting deliberately or willingly or decisively or purposely (thoughtful decisions), kumbaga automatic vs manual

Imagine a computer program. When we say it is "loading", it is also thinking somehow. Of course, a computer program is a lot simpler than a human being brain, but so are other simpler life forms. At what level of intelligence would we consider a simple life form as having a free-will? What point do they stop merely reacting to a preset response to stimulus? Does intelligence or thinking necessarily prove free-will?
Tapos para sayo, erratic behavior proves free will. How does that differ to a program using randomizer?

lol evolution is already good at separating species bossing, the fact that dogs can be separated from cats is already proof that humans can also be separated from dogs and cats, wag mo sabihing impossible magkaroon ng development of intelligence in the evolutionary chain

Wala nmn akong sinabing ganon. And sinasabi ko lng, humans want to believe in free will to feel that they are transcended compared to other creatures. As much are transcending religious beliefs are illusion, free-will is also an illusion.

 

[plhbg1]

Imagine a computer program. When we say it is "loading", it is also thinking somehow. Of course, a computer program is a lot simpler than a human being brain, but so are other simpler life forms. At what level of intelligence would we consider a simple life form as having a free-will? What point do they stop merely reacting to a preset response to stimulus? Does intelligence or thinking necessarily prove free-will?
Tapos para sayo, erratic behavior proves free will. How does that differ to a program using randomizer?

nope, eto yung pinaka misconception ng AI nung unang nag trend, akala ng users AI can actually think, but the human who trained AI only says it is just retrieving and not thinking

Wala nmn akong sinabing ganon. And sinasabi ko lng, humans want to believe in free will to feel that they are transcended compared to other creatures. As much are transcending religious beliefs are illusion, free-will is also an illusion.

free-will isn't a claim bossing, it is just the term used to describe the fact that every individual thinks differently as opposed to AI that only follows an algorithm

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

nope, eto yung pinaka misconception ng AI nung unang nag trend, akala ng users AI can actually think, but the human who trained AI only says it is just retrieving and not thinking

Is it wrong to say na humans are also just retrieving not thinking? After all, they will refer to their existing memory. What else apart from that influences a persons decision?

 

[plhbg1]

Is it wrong to say na humans are also just retrieving not thinking? After all, they will refer to their existing memory. What else apart from that influences a persons decision?

none of AI's reply is original ideas, they are just retrieved from somewhere else within the database, si AI mismo nagsabi i cannot have an opinion, yun ang pinaka feature ng human, we are able to think of new ideas by just using our imagination, if familiar ka sa Bloom's taxonomy of mental activity, retrieving is the lowest form of mental activity whereas creating new ideas is the highest form of mental activity, kaya nga yung mga thesis research or dissertation should be a new idea by checking out existing literature

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

none of AI's reply is original ideas, they are just retrieved from somewhere else within the database, si AI mismo nagsabi i cannot have an opinion, yun ang pinaka feature ng human, we are able to think of new ideas by just using our imagination, if familiar ka sa Bloom's taxonomy of mental activity, retrieving is the lowest form of mental activity whereas creating new ideas is the highest form of mental activity, kaya nga yung mga thesis research or dissertation should be a new idea by checking out existing literature

Ok.. how unique is a human opinion then? Is it not something they learn from someone else in their "database" aka memory?

Anyway, I don't think that the fact that AI is inferior to human necesarily proves human has free will..

 

[plhbg1]

Ok.. how unique is a human opinion then? Is it not something they learn from someone else in their "database" aka memory?

as i've said nga in the previous posts bossing, we have different interpretation of the world around us, ito ang pinaka reason why humans can give opinion, it's just simply your own view of things, iba din yung creating new ideas since you need to test pa using scientific method, these ideas naman is out of the blue or a product of imagination, so opinion is interpretation and new idea is imagination

AI cannot have an opinion since it's just executing scripts na inilatag ng developer niya, it cannot have its own interpretation of things but it can only retrieve someone else's interpretation of things found in its own database

Anyway, I don't think that the fact that AI is inferior to human necesarily proves human has free will..

as i have said, free will is not a claim that needs to be proven, it is just a term used to describe the fact that human behavior is unpredictable and uncontrollable or shall we say "freedom of E×ρréššion"

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

as i have said, free will is not a claim that needs to be proven, it is just a term used to describe the fact that human behavior is unpredictable and uncontrollable or shall we say "freedom of E×ρréššion"

Yes, it is an illusion that we created for ourselves.

 

[banigkulambo]

There is no free-will ayon sa isang psychologist

Tanong : pano un mga mahihirap at mga patay gutom na iskuwater ung mga naaksidente po ex.naputol mga paa kamay lahat sila walang free will ???

Kawawa po sila at lumalabas Hindi makaruwiran Ang diyos sa mga nilalang niya ? .. Hindi bias ata un ganun ..

 

[plhbg1]

There is no free-will ayon sa isang psychologist

Tanong : pano un mga mahihirap at mga patay gutom na iskuwater ung mga naaksidente po ex.naputol mga paa kamay lahat sila walang free will ???

Kawawa po sila at lumalabas Hindi makaruwiran Ang diyos sa mga nilalang niya ? .. Hindi bias ata un ganun ..

naka destined kana din daw to accuse the Lord of being biased bossing