❓ Help P2P setup ?

[Tomato]

Baka may alam kayo na setup for 300 meters p2p ?
Possible ba ? or sobrang layo ?​

 

[nitro7]

yup

House 1 [[CPE210 - AP] --> House 2 [[CPE210 - Client} + Unused Modem

pwede ?

if you don't need more than 300Mbps, this is the way to go. there are other products you can use if you need more than that.

 

[xLynx]

Stay away from 2.4ghz lods payo ko lang since madami bahay. Ubiquity nalang less paracetamol

 

[Freyasky143]

yung gen2 gamitin mo. sa ubiquity. basta tama lang ang tutok at wala masyadong ingay ng requency sa area mo

 

[Aile]

ganito pwede, router na may openwrt or fresh tomato or kahit ano na may dualmode
your new router -> 300 meters -> source ng internet

set as client mode yung 2.4Ghz tapos server mode yung 5Ghz or pwede pagpalitin din kung may 5GHz mode si internet provider mo.

kung need mo ng mas stable connection gamit ka ng removable slot yung RP-SMA/SMA/TS9 connection then palitan mo ng panel antenna (na pang wifi hindi pang LTE) pero kung clear Line of Sight naman no need kahit yung stock antenna lang.

Stay away from 2.4ghz lods payo ko lang since madami bahay. Ubiquity nalang less paracetamol

medyo bawal na kasi sa outdoor yung 5GHz, nakaka jam kasi ng weather stations at mga eroplano kaya minsan mas stable din si 2.4GHz.
sa 5GHz kasi may "DFS" na ang ginagawa pag may nadetect na weather balloon o plane/military tech magdodrop yung connection or switch to different channel, kaya slow startup din yung 5GHz wifi kasi nagscan pa sya kung may gumagamit na ng ISM band.
pero mas stable kung yung client na router may wifi6/6e+ tapos wifi6+ din yung extender kahit 2.4GHz.
delikado din kasi yung 5GHz yan madalas nadadamage sa mga CP at sa wifi USB kasi di masyado maayos implementation lalo na sa android na linux drivers pag nachambahan nareceivve ng ISM band magloloko na yung 5GHz ng cp or outdoor wifi extender. pero sa ubiquity naman at other devices compliant naman sila yun nga lang may chance na ma-DC dahil sa DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection)

 

[borokot]

ayaw mo mag mediacon setup?

 

[xLynx]

ganito pwede, router na may openwrt or fresh tomato or kahit ano na may dualmode
your new router -> 300 meters -> source ng internet

set as client mode yung 2.4Ghz tapos server mode yung 5Ghz or pwede pagpalitin din kung may 5GHz mode si internet provider mo.

kung need mo ng mas stable connection gamit ka ng removable slot yung RP-SMA/SMA/TS9 connection then palitan mo ng panel antenna (na pang wifi hindi pang LTE) pero kung clear Line of Sight naman no need kahit yung stock antenna lang.


medyo bawal na kasi sa outdoor yung 5GHz, nakaka jam kasi ng weather stations at mga eroplano kaya minsan mas stable din si 2.4GHz.
sa 5GHz kasi may "DFS" na ang ginagawa pag may nadetect na weather balloon o plane/military tech magdodrop yung connection or switch to different channel, kaya slow startup din yung 5GHz wifi kasi nagscan pa sya kung may gumagamit na ng ISM band.
pero mas stable kung yung client na router may wifi6/6e+ tapos wifi6+ din yung extender kahit 2.4GHz.
delikado din kasi yung 5GHz yan madalas nadadamage sa mga CP at sa wifi USB kasi di masyado maayos implementation lalo na sa android na linux drivers pag nachambahan nareceivve ng ISM band magloloko na yung 5GHz ng cp or outdoor wifi extender. pero sa ubiquity naman at other devices compliant naman sila yun nga lang may chance na ma-DC dahil sa DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection)

I beg to disagree boss sorry. You can always skip DFS and also, walang kinalaman sa cp at usb wifi kasi p2p naman yan eh di naman mAP. Tsaka old news napo yan makaka sira ang 5GHZ haka haka lang yan sorry boss pero nga sinasabe mo (pwera sa DFS)technically and practically, kung para sa akin disagree ako.

Yes matagal mag initialize ang 5ghz pero one time lang yan. Once ma lock, di na mag disconnect yan.

I have my experience kaya yan suggestion. Sa dinami ko ng p2p boss, ubiquity, ubiquity + openwrt tsaka mimosa

 

[nitro7]

TS, if you want a proper solution, go for a ptp link between your 2 sites. do it once and be happy with it. can you get away with a wifi solution? depending on the rf environment, sure. will will it be the right solution? no.

Linawin lang natin ang ibang points para mabawasan ang confusion.

medyo bawal na kasi sa outdoor yung 5GHz, nakaka jam kasi ng weather stations at mga eroplano kaya minsan mas stable din si 2.4GHz.
sa 5GHz kasi may "DFS" na ang ginagawa pag may nadetect na weather balloon o plane/military tech magdodrop yung connection or switch to different channel, kaya slow startup din yung 5GHz wifi kasi nagscan pa sya kung may gumagamit na ng ISM band.

there's no such thing as "medyo bawal" in the RF space. kaya nga may radio spectrum management authority ang bawat bansa, and they all coordinate with each other and the ITU. kapag bawal, bawal talaga. tulad ng licensed frequencies, di pwedeng gamitin kung wala kang license to operate in that realm.

description of DFS is pretty good. just to be clear, di lang naman ito ang cause significant delay in establishing the rf link. mas malaking issue ang antenna alignment at ang pagsi-set ng Tx power. if you're using DFS, it has to make sure the spectrum is free before transmitting. it's more of an issue during normal use kung malapit ka sa radar site. di mo rin kailangan ito. devices that use these channels have the option to completely avoid them. disable DFS on the device and it will not transmit on those channels - marami pa namang iba, eh.

pero mas stable kung yung client na router may wifi6/6e+ tapos wifi6+ din yung extender kahit 2.4GHz.

just to be clear, WiFi 6 uses 2.4GHz and 5GHz. 6GHz was only added to WiFi 6E (and later).
and while WiFi 6 comes with better spectrum management (mostly by way of OFDMA). if all the other devices in the 2.4GHz spectrum are thrashing this radio space, it can't really work wonders.

delikado din kasi yung 5GHz yan madalas nadadamage sa mga CP at sa wifi USB kasi di masyado maayos implementation lalo na sa android na linux drivers pag nachambahan nareceivve ng ISM band magloloko na yung 5GHz ng cp or outdoor wifi extender.

maybe i'm misunderstanding, pero parang ang sabi mo, pag naka-receive sa ISM band magloloko na 'yung cellphone or outdoor wifi extender?

both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz WiFi bands are within the Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) band.

pero sa ubiquity naman at other devices compliant naman sila yun nga lang may chance na ma-DC dahil sa DFS (Dynamic Frequency Selection)

that's a requirement for all devices transmitting in those channels. again, you can choose not to.

I beg to disagree boss sorry. You can always skip DFS and also, walang kinalaman sa cp at usb wifi kasi p2p naman yan eh di naman mAP. Tsaka old news napo yan makaka sira ang 5GHZ haka haka lang yan sorry boss pero nga sinasabe mo (pwera sa DFS)technically and practically, kung para sa akin disagree ako.

Yes matagal mag initialize ang 5ghz pero one time lang yan. Once ma lock, di na mag disconnect yan.

I have my experience kaya yan suggestion. Sa dinami ko ng p2p boss, ubiquity, ubiquity + openwrt tsaka mimosa

yep, ptp links are a different kettle of fish.

interestingly, though, we had a local incident recently when a visiting warship knocked out comms - You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now.. Do note that it was the impact on wireless backhaul that was the bigger issue (than WAPs in the 5GHz spectrum).

 

[Aile]

TS, if you want a proper solution, go for a ptp link between your 2 sites. do it once and be happy with it. can you get away with a wifi solution? depending on the rf environment, sure. will will it be the right solution? no.

Linawin lang natin ang ibang points para mabawasan ang confusion.


there's no such thing as "medyo bawal" in the RF space. kaya nga may radio spectrum management authority ang bawat bansa, and they all coordinate with each other and the ITU. kapag bawal, bawal talaga. tulad ng licensed frequencies, di pwedeng gamitin kung wala kang license to operate in that realm.

description of DFS is pretty good. just to be clear, di lang naman ito ang cause significant delay in establishing the rf link. mas malaking issue ang antenna alignment at ang pagsi-set ng Tx power. if you're using DFS, it has to make sure the spectrum is free before transmitting. it's more of an issue during normal use kung malapit ka sa radar site. di mo rin kailangan ito. devices that use these channels have the option to completely avoid them. disable DFS on the device and it will not transmit on those channels - marami pa namang iba, eh.



just to be clear, WiFi 6 uses 2.4GHz and 5GHz. 6GHz was only added to WiFi 6E (and later).
and while WiFi 6 comes with better spectrum management (mostly by way of OFDMA). if all the other devices in the 2.4GHz spectrum are thrashing this radio space, it can't really work wonders.



maybe i'm misunderstanding, pero parang ang sabi mo, pag naka-receive sa ISM band magloloko na 'yung cellphone or outdoor wifi extender?

both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz WiFi bands are within the Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) band.


that's a requirement for all devices transmitting in those channels. again, you can choose not to.



yep, ptp links are a different kettle of fish.

interestingly, though, we had a local incident recently when a visiting warship knocked out comms - You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now.. Do note that it was the impact on wireless backhaul that was the bigger issue (than WAPs in the 5GHz spectrum).

salamat sa pag expand at linaw medyo summary na kasi pinost ko
may konting weakness lang mga 5GHz non-DFS mode channels 36 to 48 kasi same lang halos sa 2.4GHz wifi4 na 3-4 channels walang overlap (total 11 or 13 channels). ang pinagkaiba glitchy ang 5GHz minsan nagtatampo ang hotspot. pero sa outdoor purposes medyo nerfed na si 5GHz kasi hininaan ng FCC yung 5GHz at based from experience madali din madamage ang 5GHz mode sa mga devices pag ginagamit sa labas dahil din sa sobrang dami ng available 5GHz channels talagan hirap at pagod ang 5GHz wifi chip sa pag parse at nadadamage (since idedecode nya po lahat ng signal/noise sa paligid).
Disadvantage naman ng 2.4GHz nag iinterfere sa USB3, BT, LTE kaya din sobrang bagal ng LTE B1/B3 ngayon.

at sa 5GHz naman, si 36-48 lang safe, since UNII sya not ISM, kaya sa linux router/extender users wag na po itry yung higher channels or non-outdoor frequencies pang outdoor p2p since masisira po sya.

 

[nitro7]

sorry, pre. don't take this personally, but there are so many misconceptions here, quite likely based on a single sample of your personal experience. i'm really just averse to the spread of untruths.

salamat sa pag expand at linaw medyo summary na kasi pinost ko
may konting weakness lang mga 5GHz non-DFS mode channels 36 to 48 kasi same lang halos sa 2.4GHz wifi4 na 3-4 channels walang overlap (total 11 or 13 channels).

anong weakness?

2.4GHz WiFi has 4 channels only if you're using 40MHz b/w. guess what? you shouldn't. best to keep it at 20MHz due to the very crowded space at the frequency. staying at 20MHz means you have less chances of interruption/overlap from other users of neighbouring channels - better signal integrity. kaya rin maraming nag-aadvise to use channels 1, 6 and 11, which only works if your neighbours are't using those channels already.

the breadth of the allocated spectrum for 5GHz WiFi means you can use bigger bandwidths for better throughput.

also, overlap with what? sa naval base, pier o near a weather station ka ba nakatira? if not you should forget about your misconceptions about DFS. you could very well be having, or have had, problems with 5GHz WiFi, but i bet it would have nothing to do with DFS.

ang pinagkaiba glitchy ang 5GHz minsan nagtatampo ang hotspot.

what device/s have you used? it would have more to do with the quality of the device than the use of the 5GHz spectrum.

pero sa outdoor purposes medyo nerfed na si 5GHz kasi hininaan ng FCC

FCC hasn't got anything to do with it. the higher the frequency, the less the range when transmitting at the usual power that consumer devices do. look, smart people have thought about this. kaya nga merong DFS channels, kasi kung di ka naman malapit sa radar sites, you can safely use this.

at based from experience madali din madamage ang 5GHz mode sa mga devices pag ginagamit sa labas dahil din sa sobrang dami ng available 5GHz channels talagan hirap at pagod ang 5GHz wifi chip sa pag parse at nadadamage (since idedecode nya po lahat ng signal/noise sa paligid).

checking the background frequency before transmitting only happens when you're using a DFS channel. this initial channel scan before transmitting for the first time only happens once - at start up. once established, wala na itong ganito kalaking outage. will it still be scanning periodically while in use? yes. just like any wifi router (2.4/5/6 GHz band), particularly when you have the band set to 'auto'.

hindi napapagod ang chip. they were designed to do that, and they will do that happily. you're not asking them to make dinner for you.

anong device mo ang nasira because of 5GHz WiFi? malamang iba ang dahilan ng pagkasira. and again, if you use devices that aren't fit for purpose maari nga na masira ito agad.

Disadvantage naman ng 2.4GHz nag iinterfere sa USB3, BT, LTE kaya din sobrang bagal ng LTE B1/B3 ngayon.

salamat sa pag expand at linaw medyo summary na kasi pinost ko
may konting weakness lang mga 5GHz non-DFS mode channels 36 to 48 kasi same lang halos sa 2.4GHz wifi4 na 3-4 channels walang overlap (total 11 or 13 channels). ang pinagkaiba glitchy ang 5GHz minsan nagtatampo ang hotspot. pero sa outdoor purposes medyo nerfed na si 5GHz kasi hininaan ng FCC yung 5GHz at based from experience madali din madamage ang 5GHz mode sa mga devices pag ginagamit sa labas dahil din sa sobrang dami ng available 5GHz channels talagan hirap at pagod ang 5GHz wifi chip sa pag parse at nadadamage (since idedecode nya po lahat ng signal/noise sa paligid).
Disadvantage naman ng 2.4GHz nag iinterfere sa USB3, BT, LTE kaya din sobrang bagal ng LTE B1/B3 ngayon.

at sa 5GHz naman, si 36-48 lang safe, since UNII sya not ISM, kaya sa linux router/extender users wag na po itry yung higher channels or non-outdoor frequencies pang outdoor p2p since masisira po sya.

BT and microwave ovens operate at close enough to 2.4GHz WiFi (2401 - 2495MHz) that they can cause interference. it's really not that bad in practice. di naman umaandar all day ang microwave oven, and you can still use bluetooth headphones while connected to 2.4GHz WiFi - while there could be interference, it's really not unusable.

LTE bands are in the licensed frequency range. there won't be any general interference from WiFi devices in the 5GHz range. ITU will never allow this. if you are an operator that ρáíd millions of dollars at an auction to use this spectrum, you wouldn't want every lowly WiFi access point poising any serious threat. the 6GHz spectrum is somewhat different as use cases are still being defined (in some countries) and some of the rules around them are still being established. it has already been divided into channels, where some are for Low Power Indoor use only, and also some for Very Low Power.

bumagal sa experience mo, most likely because the site you're connected to has been provisioned for less capacity than current actual usage - oversubscribed.

at sa 5GHz naman, si 36-48 lang safe, since UNII sya not ISM,

definitely not true.

the DFS channels are only shared with low-power, short range GURL devices. chances of interference in a typical residential neighbourhood are actually very small. well, unless nakatira ka sa mga lugar na nabanggit ko previously.

my house is 6 km from a weather radar site, and 3.8 km from the harbour (maritime radar) - no adverse effects from either. only IOT devices remain on 2.4GHz, as devices that can utilise higher bandwidth are on 5GHz (802.11ax).

kaya sa linux router/extender users wag na po itry yung higher channels or non-outdoor frequencies pang outdoor p2p since masisira po sya.

hehehe ikaw ang nag-advise na gumamit ng "router na may openwrt or fresh tomato or kahit ano na may dualmode", when the proper solution is to use a ptp link.

also, you may not be aware that a lot of commercial grade routers (juniper, huawei, etc. including the ones i work on) are running linux underneath. issues you may have seen haven't got anything to do with linux and linux drivers.

actually, if you can share your current setup, assuming you have gear that you have problems on 5GHz with, perhaps we can help.

in the interest of full disclosure, i have 25+ years of experience in the telco space. we make wireless ptp products (IP/TDM/hybrid) in the microwave (4GHz - 38GHz) and E-band (80 GHz) frequencies. part of engineering, it has been my job (and now my team's) to test these during the development phase, and for any software updates during the life of the product.

so, TS... if i were in your place, i'd get a Mikrotik Wireless Wire to link the 2 sites. but there are other options from ubiquiti, etc.

 

[Aile]

sorry, pre. don't take this personally, but there are so many misconceptions here, quite likely based on a single sample of your personal experience. i'm really just averse to the spread of untruths.

no offense di naman lahat ng tao madaling magkaintindihan normal lang yan, ang expertise mo sa nabasa ko ay sa enterprise setup, saakin ang experience ko lang talaga limited sa international häçking groups/individuals na kokonti na lang dahil tiwalag na sila to join the feds (sheesh). I don't think na madaming untruths, we just have our biases, mine is 2.4GHz outdoors, 5GHz indoors (with reduced TX power for indoor to avoid the noise-floor feedback loop on neighboring channels) and most of these are misunderstandings and miscommunication

anong weakness?

2.4GHz WiFi has 4 channels only if you're using 40MHz b/w. guess what? you shouldn't. best to keep it at 20MHz due to the very crowded space at the frequency. staying at 20MHz means you have less chances of interruption/overlap from other users of neighbouring channels - better signal integrity. kaya rin maraming nag-aadvise to use channels 1, 6 and 11, which only works if your neighbours are't using those channels already.

the breadth of the allocated spectrum for 5GHz WiFi means you can use bigger bandwidths for better throughput.

also, overlap with what? sa naval base, pier o near a weather station ka ba nakatira? if not you should forget about your misconceptions about DFS. you could very well be having, or have had, problems with 5GHz WiFi, but i bet it would have nothing to do with DFS.

mostly it's not just DFS but also TPC which after FCC updated the ruling (freeing 5GHz and including 6GHz in revision) may nangyare sa ibang häçkers na international, they/we experienced destruction of their(our) devices mainly the ones that have higher EIRP (for outdoor purposes and specifically with 5GHz n/ac, I assume it was killswitched RIP), kaya as of now not recommended sa häçker community gumamit ng Alfa with 5GHz mode due to recent longstanding bug sa new kernel (linux) and revised ralink kernel drivers (at sa collective experience na killed yung devices with similar setup even windows users? so I assume it wasn't just a kernel issue but TPC and DFS tailored attacks maybe?), after the new FCC ruling they(kernel) decided to be stricter and made it so all regulatories now lock to 20dBm but never higher (for linux without dkms* or out-of-tree code, but it can be higher if checking old linux installations!) - even the Bolivia crda trick no longer work (though I don't recommend doing this) unless gamit mo outdated customized kernels. Also for 2.4GHz I recommend nalang same din halos sa non-DFS at 20MHz, 3 channels sa 2.4 ang non-overlapping (not sure about the naval base addition, just saying it's clearly 3 to 4 channels even with 802.11b 22MHz), 4 channels sa 5GHz non-DFS (since I'm not very fond of DFS channels) mainly since indoors nalang ang indicated dito at sa old citings sa updated memorandum circular on wireless tech You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now. (update the wiki, if you will) You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now. (not specific stated pero it cites indoor use only sa older revisions as usual si NTC ay hindi nilinaw ng maayos xerox copy pa yung circulating copies/older revisions hahaha). In other countries? Sure use 5GHz since dami na talaga mga devices doon and mas implemented din yung mga PtP solutions and their vendors are more streamlined unlike here, may provider na US-based China-based tapos iba iba yung firmware, may 2.4GHz na may channel 13 at may channel 11, ang gulo lang hahaha.

so far sa weakness naman is range, 2.4 is still preferred for very long range, and availability for outdoor antennas since most routers na may 5GHz iba ang ginagamit or antenna config, sa PtP naman I don't recommend only kung hindi dual setup na outdoor antennas. not good to beam the target router with 40-50dBm ERP (ubiquity beam etc.) na ginagawa ng iba mas okay dual point to point since it's designed for outdoors, on my case I recommended freshtomato and the like since it's more economical and fun to setup, more features and control for me but also risky since the kernel is glitchy with lack of working IPv6 implementation (you can say linux based din naman yung mga "proprietary routers" that violate the GPL, but they use out-of-kernel patches, truiy mainline vanilla-kernel routers itself (even the linux kernel itself) still don't have proper clatd/464 and 5GHz support unless using dkms or jerryrigged clatd impementation which kinda sucks since as of now not stable both 5GHz (still debated in mailing lists) and clatd implementation on my current rolling release linux setup and openwrt - when both android ios, bsd-linux proprietary routers have their own stable implementations)

FCC hasn't got anything to do with it. the higher the frequency, the less the range when transmitting at the usual power that consumer devices do. look, smart people have thought about this. kaya nga merong DFS channels, kasi kung di ka naman malapit sa radar sites, you can safely use this.

On this part naman it's obvious that may changes sa mga wifi devices like USB, same chipset, different firmware with hardcoded patches to nerf yung maximum mW transmitted I think for safety reasons like difference with EU and US based, the US based TP-links are weaker, kaya ang dating TP-link archer na gamit ng mga novice pentesters not recommended na since masyadong regulated or nerfed yung mga yon, when comparing to chinese-made ones that may not even be part15 FCC-compliant like say even Huwaei may be better for 5GHz range since it might be more resilient to DFS (just avoiding 6E, straight to 7), on my case I know different region-manufactured wifi have different behavior since nagcocollect ako dati ng routers/wifiusb stuff may mga routers/devices upon checking firmware dump/machine code may variance and hard limits even if you reflash it.

hindi napapagod ang chip. they were designed to do that, and they will do that happily. you're not asking them to make dinner for you.

not true, there's what we call binnings, some chips are made from the same euv lithography, etc. but have varying behaviors like sa intel, the middleground tested ones are i5, i3 for those that can't use more power but performs well with various multiplier ratios and if not they will be pentiums/celerons, vice versa sa chips din may dahilan kung bakit may weaker routers na locked/hidden ang 5GHz like sa converge here nakalock ang 5GHz mainly possibly CPU constraints, overheating of chip with poorer TDP (didn't pass so locked to 2.4GHz), similarly ganoon din sa ibang companies like mediatek and snapd kaya madaming tiers na nonsensical difference lang like 100MHz difference sa CPU, but not iphone (except the few SE series with problematic wifi/5G chipset which were binned for SE), not all is happy, in the same way sa RAM, only some can be binned for L/lowpower mode and some not, and overclockable/preOC'd for the best or more powerhungry "printed" chips (like i7/i9) - even if they were cut from the same mother-wafer they still have differences.
in other words even at the microscopic perfection level there may still be tiny defects and quirks hence even in the same wafer you may only get few "yields" that can do it all (aka flagship) even in that sense may undervolting pa nga na ginagawa mga experienced PC users, since some binnings perform faster timings at lower voltages contrary to overclockers.

hehehe ikaw ang nag-advise na gumamit ng "router na may openwrt or fresh tomato or kahit ano na may dualmode", when the proper solution is to use a ptp link.

total cost with this setup di lalagpas ng 3k, with ptp I think it might exceed 8k, requiring PoE and stuff and is overkill (about 40-50dBm EIRP) BUT with dual outdoor setup okay naman (just make sure outdoor antenna is placed outdoor, dear readers) pero baka mag single setup gawin ng mga novice not good unless nasa labas na si target router. so I think it's more preferrable yung openwrt/tomato setup, I also suggested not to use higher 5GHz channels, kasi based on the memorandum by NTC/DICT na hindi malinaw that indoor lang daw si 5GHz? (unverified but can be contacted via email), and for the very reason vanilla linux (openwrt and freshtomato, etc.) support for DFS/TPC and 5GHz is very spotty. that's the cheapest and most fun route if you ask me, it's about the journey. Let's just be informative, so far I don't think madami akong natutunan sa mga postings since my experience eclipses with yours, typically your experience is mostly proprietary and modified linux-based devices for enterprise or cpe, mine is unbridled linux experience - the kind that "xruns" and not very smooth and with usecase na for protection and control in mind, hindi kasi ako masyadong favor sa data abusive practices ng mga listed companies and also the fact that they use linux yet never give back their patches to develop the kernel.

 

[nitro7]

good discussion, which i hope other people can pick something up from.

no offense di naman lahat ng tao madaling magkaintindihan normal lang yan, ang expertise mo sa nabasa ko ay sa enterprise setup, saakin ang experience ko lang talaga limited sa international häçking groups/individuals na kokonti na lang dahil tiwalag na sila to join the feds (sheesh). I don't think na madaming untruths, we just have our biases, mine is 2.4GHz outdoors, 5GHz indoors (with reduced TX power for indoor to avoid the noise-floor feedback loop on neighboring channels) and most of these are misunderstandings and miscommunication

this is where i have an issue. ganito rin 'yung ibang customers namin and this are big-name, well-known telcos all over the world...
by your own admission, you have your biases based on experience. i don't blame you for that, as that's human nature - "subok na matibay, subok na matatag" train of thought. the truth is you cannot/should not make a generalisation based on a sample that you have experienced, especially when you didn't engage people who really know about it.

if you're talking WiFi frequencies to link different sites, 2.4GHz is actually not the best choice. it will work if you want to connect a barn to the main house in a rural setting. however, in a typical baranggay with dozens of 2.4GHz routers/access points live, the noise floor is just too high. the number of visible SSIDs in a Singapore apartment building is a good example of this.

i don't understand your reasoning for lowering 5GHz Tx power (for your WiFI). there are provisions in the spec to sort channel use for you, far better than the assumption you made here.

enterprise is a minuscule chunk of what we serve. we do more commercial, industrial, and private networks including federal of many different shapes and sizes. we also focus licensed bands, but RF behaves the same. unlicensed just has to follow certain guidelines.

hope others find some of these useful...

mostly it's not just DFS .... You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now.

our products do support 'FCC-compliant' mode, so i'm well aware of this. in fact, i tested our some of our products to comply with that.

sa kwento mo... again, assumptions were made. i do accept that this was your (your groups) experience. but that does not make it an infallible truth. did any of you consider that your devices were brought down because you were doing something îllégâl? seriously, it would be îllégâl for even the FCC to take your transmitters down via targetted RF hit (yes, you can damage transceivers this way).

You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now.... iba iba yung firmware, may 2.4GHz na may channel 13 at may channel 11, ang gulo lang hahaha.

at the moment, there are a lot of countries where the rules governing the 6GHz spectrum are still taking shape. but it's not indoor only, and i see no reason why the NTC would choose to do so for the PH.

regarding the available channels for 2.4GHz WiFi, 1 to 14 ang full spec. but there are countries that don't allow all of them. so if the firmware is designated for release to a specific country and that country does not allow ch14 (for example) it shouldn't be selectable/shouldn't even appear as an option. you're familiar with freshtomato, changing the country setting should make these changes visible.

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so far sa weakness naman is range, 2.4 is still preferred for very long range... point to point since it's designed for outdoors

have you tried setting up something like this? you don't always get the best link at maximum power. so only someone who doesn't know RF will do this. kaya nga the good ones have ATPC to try to keep it at the optimum.

not sure what you mean by "dual point to point" na designed for outdoors. most ptp rf links are for outdoor use, although some are used "indoors" in special cases like a vast stadium.

on my case I recommended freshtomato... proprietary routers have their own stable implementations)

cost is a valid consideration, but there's also the thing about getting the proper solution in place.

i've played with several flavours of open source firmware - ddwrt, openwrt, tomato, freshtomato, merlin. they do add functionality to consumer grade routers, and that's a great thing. however, success leans heavily on which device you use it on. not really a surprise as the code won't be optimised for all platforms, but this leads to issues manifesting on some target devices and not on others. the open source community (bless them for their amazing work) simply cannot keep up with the number of devices around, and that's before they run into h/w limitations of each design. we make routers, so all too familiar with this.

On this part naman it's obvious that may changes sa mga wifi devices like USB... even if you reflash it.

you should get out of the mindset of nerfing maximum Tx power. the reality is that if your RF link needs more than 1W at the antenna port, you screwed up your RF path design (or you're not using the right equipment). the FCC did not screw up existing RF paths or somehow limited what you can do when setting up a new RF link/s. the objective is to ensure that they do not screw up other neighboring RF links, particularly those licensed to operate in the spectrum.

dito na nga pumapasok 'yung "horses for courses". you don't just boost the power of your omnidirectionally radiating WiFi access point, when what you really need is to link one specific remote site. use the right equipment, in this case, a ptp link.

not true, there's what we call binnings, ... to overclockers.

so you're comparing the case of general purpose CPUs vs ASICs. that is not to say that ASICs don't have limitations. of course they do. but your earlier generalisation na napapagod 'yung chip pag gumagamit ng 5GHz, is just laughable, sorry.

you also assumed that manufacturers accept chips that don't make the grade. i don't know of any serious player that does. yes, there could be some that escape quality control and get shipped. these would be covered by warranty. but to say they will accept chips that failed QC, if they are cheaper does not make sense (not sure about cheap Chinese stuff, of course). using these sub-standard chips mean the risk of unpredictable failure. the hit on your company's reputation is too big a risk to take. proper gear have MTBF defined and published, won't work very well if you're using those failed chips.

on locked out features, the reason you mentioned is just one of many. there are so many others. the process usually starts from a telco launching an RFP for vendors with a budget (explicit or otherwise) in mind. for the vendors to meet that target, they offer the cheapest devices in their cabinet.

can you tell me a specific modem/router from converge where 5GHz wifi has been locked out by firmware? i can probably check if it was locked out or if they chose to use a cheaper component that does not support it. this is one way of bringing the cost down (though i'm not sure if converge is a customer of ours).

total cost with this setup di lalagpas ng 3k, with ptp I think it might exceed 8k... openwrt/tomato setup

more expensive, sure. fit for purpose? yes. more stable? yes. more scalable? yes. etc. at the end of the day, the limitation is mostly imposed by the budget, i give you that. but TS was asking for a p2p link, with no declared budget. i think we should start proposing p2p solutions.

this is also the way i look at it... if he sets up a solution that's good for 100Mbps now, can you use it to get 300Mbps if that's something in the foreseeable future?

, I also suggested not to use higher 5GHz channels, kasi based on the memorandum by NTC/DICT na hindi malinaw that indoor lang daw si 5GHz? (unverified but can be contacted via email)

that's really not the case. maybe the NTC is not good at communicating these. first of all, the 5GHz band is not just for WiFi. there's a licensed part of that spectrum, and we have customers in the philippines that use that.

and for the very reason vanilla linux (openwrt and freshtomato, etc.) support for DFS/TPC and 5GHz is very spotty. that's the cheapest and most fun route if you ask me, it's about the journey.

it can be fun (and a good way to learn) for the tech inclined like you. i can assure you most users would prefer something that just works for them. especially if it is their main source of information (internet connection).

Let's just be informative, so far I don't think madami akong natutunan sa mga postings since my experience eclipses with yours, typically your experience is mostly proprietary and modified linux-based devices for enterprise or cpe, mine is unbridled linux experience - the kind that "xruns" and not very smooth and with usecase na for protection and control in mind, hindi kasi ako masyadong favor sa data abusive practices ng mga listed companies and also the fact that they use linux yet never give back their patches to develop the kernel.

a little bit of cpe, but more on pe and on towards the core, really. but of course, or stuff need to be interoperable. actually, there's nothing proprietary about the part of RF that transmits. while you we always seek to have the secret sauce to achieve better something (performance, etc.), they all need to adhere to the rules, especially if you sell to the US, which is the best market.

RF is so much better defined, and the rules are strictly enforced. pagdating sa networking, you look at the standards and they all have clauses that are "recommendations". so to cut costs different vendors pretty much choose what to implement, and what not to. which is why there are interoperability issues between brands.

asan na ba ang beer? this might be more fun with some. single-malt, perhaps?

 

[xLynx]

good discussion, which i hope other people can pick something up from.



this is where i have an issue. ganito rin 'yung ibang customers namin and this are big-name, well-known telcos all over the world...
by your own admission, you have your biases based on experience. i don't blame you for that, as that's human nature - "subok na matibay, subok na matatag" train of thought. the truth is you cannot/should not make a generalisation based on a sample that you have experienced, especially when you didn't engage people who really know about it.

if you're talking WiFi frequencies to link different sites, 2.4GHz is actually not the best choice. it will work if you want to connect a barn to the main house in a rural setting. however, in a typical baranggay with dozens of 2.4GHz routers/access points live, the noise floor is just too high. the number of visible SSIDs in a Singapore apartment building is a good example of this.

i don't understand your reasoning for lowering 5GHz Tx power (for your WiFI). there are provisions in the spec to sort channel use for you, far better than the assumption you made here.

enterprise is a minuscule chunk of what we serve. we do more commercial, industrial, and private networks including federal of many different shapes and sizes. we also focus licensed bands, but RF behaves the same. unlicensed just has to follow certain guidelines.

hope others find some of these useful...



our products do support 'FCC-compliant' mode, so i'm well aware of this. in fact, i tested our some of our products to comply with that.

sa kwento mo... again, assumptions were made. i do accept that this was your (your groups) experience. but that does not make it an infallible truth. did any of you consider that your devices were brought down because you were doing something îllégâl? seriously, it would be îllégâl for even the FCC to take your transmitters down via targetted RF hit (yes, you can damage transceivers this way).



at the moment, there are a lot of countries where the rules governing the 6GHz spectrum are still taking shape. but it's not indoor only, and i see no reason why the NTC would choose to do so for the PH.

regarding the available channels for 2.4GHz WiFi, 1 to 14 ang full spec. but there are countries that don't allow all of them. so if the firmware is designated for release to a specific country and that country does not allow ch14 (for example) it shouldn't be selectable/shouldn't even appear as an option. you're familiar with freshtomato, changing the country setting should make these changes visible.

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have you tried setting up something like this? you don't always get the best link at maximum power. so only someone who doesn't know RF will do this. kaya nga the good ones have ATPC to try to keep it at the optimum.

not sure what you mean by "dual point to point" na designed for outdoors. most ptp rf links are for outdoor use, although some are used "indoors" in special cases like a vast stadium.



cost is a valid consideration, but there's also the thing about getting the proper solution in place.

i've played with several flavours of open source firmware - ddwrt, openwrt, tomato, freshtomato, merlin. they do add functionality to consumer grade routers, and that's a great thing. however, success leans heavily on which device you use it on. not really a surprise as the code won't be optimised for all platforms, but this leads to issues manifesting on some target devices and not on others. the open source community (bless them for their amazing work) simply cannot keep up with the number of devices around, and that's before they run into h/w limitations of each design. we make routers, so all too familiar with this.





you should get out of the mindset of nerfing maximum Tx power. the reality is that if your RF link needs more than 1W at the antenna port, you screwed up your RF path design (or you're not using the right equipment). the FCC did not screw up existing RF paths or somehow limited what you can do when setting up a new RF link/s. the objective is to ensure that they do not screw up other neighboring RF links, particularly those licensed to operate in the spectrum.

dito na nga pumapasok 'yung "horses for courses". you don't just boost the power of your omnidirectionally radiating WiFi access point, when what you really need is to link one specific remote site. use the right equipment, in this case, a ptp link.






so you're comparing the case of general purpose CPUs vs ASICs. that is not to say that ASICs don't have limitations. of course they do. but your earlier generalisation na napapagod 'yung chip pag gumagamit ng 5GHz, is just laughable, sorry.

you also assumed that manufacturers accept chips that don't make the grade. i don't know of any serious player that does. yes, there could be some that escape quality control and get shipped. these would be covered by warranty. but to say they will accept chips that failed QC, if they are cheaper does not make sense (not sure about cheap Chinese stuff, of course). using these sub-standard chips mean the risk of unpredictable failure. the hit on your company's reputation is too big a risk to take. proper gear have MTBF defined and published, won't work very well if you're using those failed chips.

on locked out features, the reason you mentioned is just one of many. there are so many others. the process usually starts from a telco launching an RFP for vendors with a budget (explicit or otherwise) in mind. for the vendors to meet that target, they offer the cheapest devices in their cabinet.

can you tell me a specific modem/router from converge where 5GHz wifi has been locked out by firmware? i can probably check if it was locked out or if they chose to use a cheaper component that does not support it. this is one way of bringing the cost down (though i'm not sure if converge is a customer of ours).




more expensive, sure. fit for purpose? yes. more stable? yes. more scalable? yes. etc. at the end of the day, the limitation is mostly imposed by the budget, i give you that. but TS was asking for a p2p link, with no declared budget. i think we should start proposing p2p solutions.

this is also the way i look at it... if he sets up a solution that's good for 100Mbps now, can you use it to get 300Mbps if that's something in the foreseeable future?



that's really not the case. maybe the NTC is not good at communicating these. first of all, the 5GHz band is not just for WiFi. there's a licensed part of that spectrum, and we have customers in the philippines that use that.



it can be fun (and a good way to learn) for the tech inclined like you. i can assure you most users would prefer something that just works for them. especially if it is their main source of information (internet connection).




a little bit of cpe, but more on pe and on towards the core, really. but of course, or stuff need to be interoperable. actually, there's nothing proprietary about the part of RF that transmits. while you we always seek to have the secret sauce to achieve better something (performance, etc.), they all need to adhere to the rules, especially if you sell to the US, which is the best market.

RF is so much better defined, and the rules are strictly enforced. pagdating sa networking, you look at the standards and they all have clauses that are "recommendations". so to cut costs different vendors pretty much choose what to implement, and what not to. which is why there are interoperability issues between brands.

asan na ba ang beer? this might be more fun with some. single-malt, perhaps?

sana nga may matutunan sya sayo paps. Di ko alam kung saan bases nya di porket based on experience eh ganun na ang takbo ng WiFi ni sa dinami dami ng WISP dito sa mundo sya lang may ganung experience, baka nga nasa setup nya ang prob eh ni lahat ba naman. Porket mali setup kung makapag generalize and makapag discourage ng frequencies lol.